Feminist Bloggers Get Up In Arms Over Fat Princess
At E3 this year, Tiny checked out (and loved) an upcoming PSN game called Fat Princess. The basic point is this: You have captured your rival's Princess and they have captured yours. To keep your enemy from rescuing said Princess, you can gather wood to build up your defenses, or grab cake to feed the Princess thus increasing her weight and making her harder to carry out. Sounds pretty straight forward, right?
Well it seems that some feminist bloggers have taken exception to the representation and made their opinions known loud and clear. In an open letter to Sony, Shakesville's Melissa McEwan was quoted as saying:
[Fat Princess] looks and sounds just adorable--but the only thing I can't figure out is why anyone would want to rescue a fat princess in the first place, since everyone knows that fat girls are unlovable human garbage at whom any sensible bloke would sooner hurl invective than cast a longing glance... I'm positively thrilled to see such unyielding dedication to creating a new generation of fat-hating, heteronormative assholes.
Similarly, Mighty Ponygirl of Feminist Gamers had this to say
Honestly, the "core game mechanics" are brilliant, and if I didn't care one whit about the objectification of women or fat-bashing, I would think this was the best thing since... well, Team Fortress 2...Instead of running out into the forest to find cake to fatten up the princess with, why not go out and find gold (which is a lot heavier than cake) to stuff into a treasure chest. The more gold in the chest, the heavier it would be, and the harder it would be to carry.
Oh, but that's not as "cute" as cake and fat chicks. Right.
Reading this sort of thing brings up thoughts of all the RE5 racism cries. While I understand the need for sensitivities to issues such as these, (After all, for better or worse we have certainly pointed out poor representations of gays in games) the reactions to Fat Princess (and RE5) seem a bit overblown to me. I suppose we can chalk it up to the overly PC sensitive world that we currently live in.
What are your thoughts about this? Should these women be upset? Is this a poor representation and insulting to overweight people? Does it make any difference that the character designs for this game were done by a woman?
[via GamePolitics, Joystiq]
Fruit Brute
Posted to Video Games on 24 July 2008
· Comments (34)
Other stuff like this: fat princess, feminism, overweight, ps3, psn, sony
Name: Dave
While I believe sensitivity to those outside cultural "norms" is a virtue, I'm just not sure I'm seeing the malicious or negative content here. There just doesn't seem to be any ill intent here, nor so i see this in any way as "fat-hating". The game is about a fat princess being rescued and protected, not having rocks thrown at her for her size. If there's a spoonful of humor about her size thrown in, fine, but that hardly makes those who enjoy the game "heteronormative assholes".
I'm generally a pretty big wussy sensitive hippy type about these things (I did go to Berkeley after all) but I'm going to have to side with "overreaction" on this one.
As a non-tiny fellow myself, I'm usually pretty defensive about fat-bashing, so-called "heteronormative" values, and the poor treatment of large women in our society.
But having seen Fat Princess in action, I can honestly say that it's about as harmless as harmless can be. The princess is cute and adorable even when she gets bigger, and after all the point of the game is to TAKE the fat princess: she's wanted. It's a cute, sweet little game that doesn't promote anorexic skeleton-women, or even veer anywhere near real-world issues about women or people in general.
But, like Spazgadget, I've been on the other side of the opinion fence too, so I can see where these women are coming from. But for my money they should be a lot more concerned about how women are portrayed in, say, the DOA or GTA series - that's where impossible bodies and horrible stereotypes really do persist, respectively.
Why shouldn't they? We as gay men seem to get our panties in a twist (including yours truly) when something threatens my own self-image.
However, I can't go on a diet or have gastro-bypass surgery to 'take my gay away', so I dunno if a fair comparison can be made, regardless.
Maybe it's in the name of the game. If there were a game about a man and his love life (which happened to consist of other men in which he was interested), would I name it "GAY DUDE"?
(The name of this game does remind me of Kirstie Alley's Fat Actress show, which I *loved*)
I dunno. I just posit these cake-crumbs of observation as calories for further thought.
Yeah- okay, so... shes a fat woman in a game. Big deal- If anything, I think its a step up from the women that we seen in games on a regular basis- an unbelievably skinny woman with a pair of DoubleX boobs walking on toothpicks for legs- and somehow still managing to wear high heels.
Really though, should feminists be complaining about games like Dead or alive beach volleyball? A game based around buying increasingly skimpier outfits for women- taking pictures of them and slathering on tanning lotion.
Rather than complaining about a chubby princess who likes cake.
Tiny Dancer's on the mark as usual. What really bugs me aobut this story is that the women they have in their site's banner-- Tifa from FF7, Jill from RE, etc... are some of the least "feminist" role models in gaming, and they're raising a stink about THIS?
As someone who considers himself a feminist, I didn't see anything wrong with this game-- size- or gender-related. To me, it translated to completely benign reverse-classism (ie. Royalty is useless! we need to help them do the simplest of things!). It could've been Sleepy Emperor, or Stupid Governor, or Useless Prince and it'd have the same effect on me.
What really pisses me off is that I stated the above non-trollish (or so I thought) response on their blog, and they screened my comment. I guess I'll have to continue looking if I want to find an intelligent, provoking feminist gaming blog on the Internet.
Feminists are stupid. Throw facts at them.
"Should these women be upset?"
This is not the question we should be asking. I think we all need to stop being so defensive when members of minority groups feel offended. Let's remember that taking offense to something means getting your feelings hurt. Watching the RE5 trailers, I felt uncomfortable with the way so much seemed to evoke elements of white violence against blacks in America. It made me feel a bit uncomfortable to watch it. And yet I felt like I couldn't express this feeling without people telling me to stop "playing the race card," as if my emotional reaction were some sort of attack on someone.
The first quote you posted is part of an open letter in which the author is clearly attacking the creators of the game, so it is appropriate to debate the validity of such a complaint. But the second quote is from a completely different context, a simple blog post in which someone was expressing their own personal reaction. We need to recognize the difference.
Please, everyone, whenever you read or hear someone upset about offense of minorities, ask yourself whether they're actually arguing a point or simply expressing their feelings. It's natural that we should feel threatened when someone is offended by something we enjoy--it forces us to ask ourselves whether there's something wrong with us. But don't lash out at the person who is hurt to solve your quandary. And consider that both reactions could be completely valid, since each person is coming from their own background and seeing things in their own way.
Wait a minute... this is a game, the only game, where people WANT to rescue the fat princess! No matter how fat she is, it just takes more effort!
In HER mind, she "can't figure out is why anyone would want to rescue a fat princess in the first place" and gives stereotypes. This game HAS YOU RESCUE FAT PRINCESS! Therefore, to hell with your stereotypes! To hell with YOUR stereotypes of "fat-hating, heteronormative assholes."
Are you serious in saying that ANY GAME that includes people either choosing to rescue a fat princess, or choosing not to rescue a fat princess, creates fat-hating assholes?
Is your solution to NEVER portray fat people in games? Would that make people less fat-hating assholes, to never see them in media and video games and only come across them in real life?
Ridiculous.
"Feminists are stupid. Throw facts at them."
Wild Feminist attacks!
Ash throws a fact at Feminist!
Wild Feminist became angry!
Wild Feminist ran!
Surely the fact that your rival keeps trying to save his princess even though you've gotten her all fat is a positive thing.
Or do all the damsels in distress have to be anorexic twits?
I really see no problem with this. I am a chubby girl so I can see how people can take offense to it. But at the same time there are games that display fat men. My boyfriend is over weight and is ashamed of it but I still love him none the less. But he gets harsh comments all the time at work and home about how fat he is. So it isn't just a woman issue that is only felt by women alone. People can either like you or dislike you, it despite what weight you are. They will always find a way to nit pick everything till it's out or proportion. I can't say what the best situation of it is. I guess it depends only on the individuals.
Also Resident Evil 5 isn't racist. Remember that scene from The Animal with Rob Schneider. Where they were in the woods and they were about to attack Marvin. When Miles comes in claiming he was the animal man. But the mob didn't want to attack him because they didn't want to be racist? That's kind of discrimination right there. So what people are getting offended about is that Africans people can't be zombies? Because the Whatever-Virus would be racist if it did? I think it's racist right there if people think that African Americans have to sit in the corner and can't be villains.
Mighty Ponygirl shut up and cook my dinna and clean the bathroom OH and who said you could speak woman!?
pffft whatever its about a fat person and i'm sorry but yes... its true... more people are turned off by fat people... who would want to steal a fat princess or hell even a gay fat prince... not me thats for sure... and being fat by eating a lot is a choice
I agree with Richie. Voicing an opinion and openly speaking out are completely different things.
It's perfectly natural to feel uncomfortable about depictions in video games (or other types of media), even if it isn't "supposed" to be hurtful.
It's also a completely human response to say "Hey, I don't like this."
... and now I feel like I don't know this blog anymore (not that I was terribly intimate with it in the first place)! Gamers can be so mean...
so, let me get this straight.
you "Lara Croft"-ify a character in a game, and it's sexist.
you "Oprah"-fy a character and now you're a "fat-hating, heteronormative asshole"?
you can't have your *ahem* "cake" and eat it to, folks.
besides, what have we learned from video games?
1) the cake is a lie.
2) girls that game? just a myth, meaning these girl-gamers are just a lie.
logic states that if cake is a lie, and girl-gamers is a lie, thing girls ARE cake. hooray!
see what i did? i used just as much overly abstract rationalizing as they did.
the fact of the matter is your goal is to save her; and no matter what she looks like, you're still gonna go rescue her, though "thick" and "thin".
/PUN
frak the skinny betch in the other castle - you want the rubenesque one with junk in the trunk!
if images of skinny people make us feel fat, then surely images of plus-sized folks will make us feel thinner, no?
=)
As someone who is both fat and a princess, I am not at all offended by this game. In fact, I wanted to play it based on the title alone! I personally feel elated by the fact that there is finally a video game depiction of a female who isn't anorexic-looking. Maybe this means we are getting just a little bit closer to depicting women in a more positive light in video games...sure, she isn't exactly doing anything, just sorta, ya know, sittin' there and waiting for someone to rescue her...but hey, one step at a time, right?
But anyway, I do not find this game offensive, quite the contrary. Hell, I may even cosplay as the fat princess at a con someday. How's THAT for realism?
@Lauren: That's what I like to hear! PLEASE send pics if you do it. I will be sure to post them.
Lauren, please make dreams come true and cosplay this with a group of guys carrying you around. That would be awesome!
I agree with Tiny. If we want to talk about negative stereotypes in gaming culture, there are better places to start than a largely unknown, small scale title that isn't that popular (yet?).
I'm in complete agreement with Richie and Purin here. The real question isn't "should person x or group y be upset?" It should be why are they upset? I think taking the focus away from the issues of weight and gender representation in video games (a topic that could be very interesting) and making it "those feminist freakjobs are overreacting" is a page right out of the Fox News playbook. Rendering something deviant, or Unamerican, or immoral means we don't have to actually discuss the issue on the table. Personally, I'm not overwhelmingly offended about "Fat Princess", but then I'm not overweight or a woman. I'm certianly not going to suggest someone who was is acting like a histrionic nutjob for taking issue with it though. It'd be a bit hypocritical for someone who spends his time pondering the treatment of gays in the media to be incredulous when other minority groups raise issues as well.
Ok, first off, women are not a minority group. Just want to point that out.
Second, I think that the bloggers here, much like the bloggers reacting to RE5 a year ago, need to reserve judgment until more of the game is actually released. Forming opinions now is not a bad thing, but at least wait until more info has made it out before making sweeping generalizations about its degree of offensiveness.
Along those lines, Melissa is being reactionary and way out of line with her open letter, undermining the very points she's trying to make and sounds as if she is reacting to past hurts instead of present facts.
Mighty Ponygirl (and it may be petty, but ironic or not, I have a hard time taking seriously a feminist who adopts the moniker "mighty ponygirl") is more rational, and though she may not like it, yes, the concept of a fat princess and cake is more cute than the wholly unoriginal idea of a heavy treasure chest. Part of the way indie developers get recognized is by doing something that stands out and garners attention; this does that and has yet to display anything particularly offensive.
People really need to take things with a healthy dose of perspective, a sense of humor, and skin that's not so thin. This is clearly not to those girl's tastes, but decrying it as some kind of hate speech from anti-fat hetero normative assholes is abusing hyperbole.
Thirdly, shut up, jayoshi.
Ok, first off, women are not a minority group. Just want to point that out.
Second, I think that the bloggers here, much like the bloggers reacting to RE5 a year ago, need to reserve judgment until more of the game is actually released. Forming opinions now is not a bad thing, but at least wait until more info has made it out before making sweeping generalizations about its degree of offensiveness.
Along those lines, Melissa is being reactionary and way out of line with her open letter, undermining the very points she's trying to make and sounds as if she is reacting to past hurts instead of present facts.
Mighty Ponygirl (and it may be petty, but ironic or not, I have a hard time taking seriously a feminist who adopts the moniker "mighty ponygirl") is more rational, and though she may not like it, yes, the concept of a fat princess and cake is more cute than the wholly unoriginal idea of a heavy treasure chest. Part of the way indie developers get recognized is by doing something that stands out and garners attention; this does that and has yet to display anything particularly offensive.
People really need to take things with a healthy dose of perspective, a sense of humor, and skin that's not so thin. This is clearly not to those girl's tastes, but decrying it as some kind of hate speech from anti-fat hetero normative assholes is abusing hyperbole.
Thirdly, shut up, jayoshi.
*grumble* Stupid double-post. Anyways....
A question I forgot to put in, but asked a feminist friend (who never quite answered it): if the player characters can choose between male and female avatars, does having "normal" females rescuing the fat princess mitigate the fact that she's being portrayed as the classically offensive helpless/useless female?
I'm a girl, not offended girl. I love the sound of this game. I have a couple of fat friends who think they are princesses.
I don't understand how a game about protecting a rotund princess and subsequently rescue your own rotund princess is supposed to somehow be objectifying women? But, whatever. I mean even Joss Whedon, a self-described flaming woman's activist fills his shows with pretty women, so that must make him a bad person, too.
Stop whining and pick battles that frakking matter.
Richie, purin, and G_whiz are right on the mark. One thing I have to add though, is that it's a very easy way to dismiss out of hand a group's concerns by saying they're getting "up in arms," suggest that your readers simply "chalk it up to the overly sensitive PC world we live in" or using similar devaluing characterizations. And doing that doesn't get anyone any closer to understanding or common ground.
Lordsia, Fruit, did you really need to write this?
This post is fail, it is made of ad hominem, quoting without context and 'oh look at the little feminists being all angry' and it has attracted exactly the comments I'd have thought it would.
I'm signing up behind Keith, Richie, Purin and G_whiz on this one.
I am deeply offended by people being offended by this.
In a world of ten second attention spans everything needs a gimmick.
@Xian: interesting question, I'd say: Yes. Having female avatars involved in the rescue would mitigate the fact of the princess portraying the helpless, hapless stereotype. In my eyes, it would at least counteract the „heteronormative“ part of the feministgamers-criticism and make the princess indeed a parody of well-fed nobility.
I am with those who think that the opern letter ripping into the game's developpers is overblown. But I too would get a bad vibe of the game if it had the princess as the only female representation in it. The connection of the gender with the only two characteristics: uselessnes/passivity and outward appearance/body image stuff is what unquestionably merits criticism. And for me, that would really nullify the originality of the game's concept in favor of stupid, old, one-dimensional gender stereotypes. *yawn*
So, yay for female playable characters coming to the rescue!
I'm also with Richie, purin and G_Whiz: Everyone has a right to be upset and to communicate their opinions. It's what these blogs are for. Even if the criticism isn't 100% appropriate in this case, it doesn't hurt anyone. On the matter of racism or sexism etc. I'd rather have one debate too many, than everyone shutting up about it until it's too late.
Every fanboy can whine to his/her heart's content about reduced difficulty of BG&E2 based on one comment by the developers or graphics based on one trailer and be in sympathetic company. If two feminists dare to criticise social implications of a game before they have every information, the internet implodes. And they get told to complain only about stuff that matters. I mean, really?
On a sidenote: With the title of this blog post, I half feared a 'discussion' like the troll-fest on destructoid. Happy to see, that is not the case. :)
I think you've got the defensiveness and sensitives exactly backwards, Richie.
Worrying about shooting black zombies when you're perfectly content to shoot white zombies is, in my opinion, a twisted sense of reverse-racism. That is just being way too overly sensitive and if you shared that opinion in a public forum I would be there to point it out. You are entitled to your personal opinion, and when you bring it up for public discussion it is open to the opinions of others.
These so-called "Feminists" have their priorities mixed up and are spoiling for a fight where there is none, in my opinion. So much so that the absurdity of their comments is fair game for ridicule. If I made a stupid post on a blog I'd be open for ridicule. So there you have, equality.
I consider myself a feminist and it is with great pride that I point out that these are some really stupid bitches; knowing that they are equally entitled to their opinion of me.
I've been mulling over the issue of the fat princess. I thought it was a cute, mostly innocent, idea, but I can see where it rubs people the wrong way. Fatness is often the butt end of really mean jokes, if not badly formulated ones. To paraphrase: "She's fat. She eats, because that's what fat people do. They eat. Because they're fat. They're fat, so they must eat continuously and only think about food. Did I mention she's fat?"
(They only need to hire one stripper! A MALE stripper! 'cause they're gay! They're BOTH men... who like men! Get it? The whole concept of a hot guy stripping and dancing is CRAZAY... and it turns them on! No, I don't need a punchline. That IS the punchline! I'm so edgy. Give me money.)
A disagreement, even a strongly stated one or a formal complaint, does not always equal a united conspiracy to KILL THE GAME AND THE GAMER WAY OF LIFE.
(How does having a problem with an aspect of an upcoming game make one not a feminist and instead some sort of poser? Is it because she might dare to disagree with otherwise similarly minded people?)
Okay, first. I am fat. Second, I am bisexual.
If the game was called "Fat Fag" or "Fat Fairy Fuck" I'd be pretty fucking offended. You should be to. I come here hoping to find empathay, but what I found is far worse.
Gays tend to be some of the most caring and sensitive people out there. Probably because society does a good job of treating them like ass, and they can relate to others who are equally hated. Your response makes me question my belief in that stereotype. Maybe some Gays are just as malicious and calious are their hetero counterparts.
You have truely rocked my word.
Just to add some counterpoint on the Resident Evil 5 racial distribution issue; when I first saw footage of the game I was midly weirded out...the first thought that came into my mind was how delighted the blatantly racist good old boys in my backwards, southern state would be because they'd have the luxury of taking out their hostilities on pixilized black people instead of downloading cracked versions of Wolfenstein which feature crazed blacks to put down. I'm not suggesting that everyone has the same biases in this regard, but it does create some problematic precident. I wouldn't at all suggest that the creators of the game are racist...but it does raise some actually valid questions about sociological perception of race and the media.
Secondly the sociological definition of "minority group" is a sociological group that does not constitute a politically dominant voting majority of the total population of a given society. A sociological minority is not necessarily a numerical minority — it may include any group that is disadvantaged with respect to a dominant group in terms of social status, education, employment, wealth and political power. To avoid confusion, some writers prefer the terms "subordinate group" and "dominant group" rather than "minority" and "majority", respectively.
http://academic.udayton.edu/race/01race/minor01.htm
-Women, given the above definition and the extensive reading I've done on the subject, definitley apply.
@Brandon - The difference here is that the nouns you chose- "fag" and "fairy fuck", are in fact derogatory terms, whereas princess is not (well, ok, that's debatable, since it might be used to insult someone who is vain or self-centered, but I digress, because it is generally not hurled as an insult to passers by). If the game was called "Fat Bitch" or "Fat Cunt" or some other derogatory word aimed at women, then yes, I'd be extremely offended, as a feminist male.
The next question would then be, is the word "fat" used here as an insult? Or simply an adjective? I think that's where a lot of the division between people's opinions comes from. When I read it, I think of it as an innocent description. I could play Mad Gabs with the adjective and find all sorts of different names for the game- "Cute Princess", "Smart Princess", "Ambidextrous Princess", and so on. But other people might construe the title as having a hateful connotation to it. Really, it seems that the people who have a problem with the game are the people that have a problem with "fatness". If you accept that some people are fat and some people are thin, then the word fat loses its derogatory connotation.
Sorry if that was rambling, I'm kind of stumbling to wrap this up quickly. I might clarify later. But by the way, I'd totally buy a game called "Gay Dude".
Some of you guys might enjoy my blog about Feminism/Misandry... I hope that you'll check it out.
ForeignWomenOnly
http://foreignwomenonly.blogspot.com/