Personally my Wii Library is bigger than any of my libraries other than GCN. I enjoy a bunch of titles like No More Heroes, both Trauma Centers, the first Rayman, Okami, Zack and Wiki, Blastworks, as well as the standard first party affair. I think the Wii offers a wider variety of games, even if they're not all top-notch Triple-A titles that the hardcore industry tends to focus on. Have you even heard of Blast Works, much less played it? It is an old-time scrolling space shooter with an interesting enemy-collecting mechanic as well as an insanely deep level of customization. That game is as hardcore as it gets with the time it would take you to design one fully custom level.

Personally, there's not a whole lot on X-Box 360 that interests me outside of a few top notch titles and things with plastic guitar peripherals. Orange Box, Mass Effect, Lost Odyssey and Mass Effect are the only things that see a whole lot of playtime around here. I would have to argue that while the Wii has more crap, it also has many more gems that the industry doesn't pay attention too because they're not like Halo or Gears of War. I don't see any news on The Conduit anywhere other than IGN. Why? The game looks like a phenomenal sci-fi shooter that is custom built to take advantage of the Wii's IR controls. It's not all casual games, not by a LONG shot.

@randle
personally, when I see someone say that they own a ton of games and then proceed to list every game they own for a system in order to defend it, it always just makes me think that they're trying to be "omg no 1 wii fan!1!"
Wootini never said good games don't exist on the system, but compare your pile of good games to the amount of actual games and there's a big difference. I don't see why people try to deny this all the time by listing the same twenty games over and over. If you saw Nintendo at E3 you would know that everything Wootini said is correct. It doesn't need to compete, which is why something like Wii Music got center stage and Pikmin 3 got a little side note that you would only find if you browse gaming focused sites.
I've got a Wii myself and I'm really not very interested in its librabry. No More Heroes was great, but aside from the cut scenes (amazing by the way) and the boss fights the game was awful. The town was lifeless and dead and good god those minigames. What was the point of them aside from forcing you to swallow ten hours of dull gameplay?
So in the end I really don't get why you are trying to argue that wii is not focused on casual players. You can sit in your corner and call yourself hardcore all you want, but it won't change the fact that Wii Play has been on amazon's Top 2o list for over a year now.

I agree with Wootini on this one. My Wii selection is rather small. I own perhaps 4 games and only two of those are third party (Sonic and potter, which I regret not getting on the 360).

I played my Wii last week for the first time since Brawl came out. Hell I bought Brawl and only played it on the day it came out.

Yeah, I hear you. It's super depressing. I only bought an Xbox 360 under duress, and really really *want* to be playing my Wii and PS3 all the time, but... it's kind of a game wasteland. So here I am playing the 360 every day. :(

have a 360 and a Wii...

Let's be honest the Wii game selection is rubbish.

SSB: Brawl is terrible, Metroid looks worse than the original Halo, and is kinda confusing with what is ging on (I never played the rest of the series), Boom Blox is ok, but the best game remains Wii Tennis!

The 360 on the other hand has so many titles you don't know much aboutt that are a lot of fun - The Outfit is what I'm playing now, and Saint's Row which was brill. I still actually haven't played Halo or GTA4 when it comes down to it!

I think one reason the Wii is hurting a bit though is the graphics, now it really does look dated - Wii Tennis managed to gloss over it, as does boom blox, but everything else looks pretty awful, the increased resolution really does increase the quality of play on the 360. Especially when they are trying to compete also with my PC with a 2560x1600 resolution. In fact even the 360 is losing out - I bought Grid, and Penny Arcade Adventures on Steam, and use my 360 controller. Although yes there are some games that work better on the 360.

I grew up with Nintendo. To say that I am a fanboy is inaccurate, I am simply a fan. I was simply stating that the system is not without its hardcore merit. I even said in my statement that, yes, it's flooded with crap. Does that mean the Game Boy Advance and DS did not belong in the hands of the hardcore gamer? Are we now to say that the DS and PSP are not in any sort of competition? Because, friends, the DS is full of tons of "That's So Raven!" shovelware. But it is also full of tons of top-notch gems. I am simply stating that I think that you are not looking at the picture as clearly as you think you are.

Trust me, I've been harping on Nintendo for years with all the stuff they do that angers me. Just saying: different tastes, yes? I do not play my 360 all the time, love the machine as I do. There just is not a whole lot on there that appeals to me. I apologize of this offends your perceptions of the cosmos. Second thought, no I don't.

one more thing... Randle is pretty hot!!! Dude, I checked out your pic on your blog/profile ;) smmmoking!!

That is a real interesting theory. I find my self occasionally playing my Wii. It is truly more fun with other people. I really hope Wiiware will give us something.

ha! this is hilarious. wootini makes one remark that could MAYBE compliment the ps3 over 360 and the fanboys cry foul. look, sony has been trashed on here for so long, you can't possibly think the website is a ps3 biased fansite because of one comment.

but really now, come on...the ps3 is not a game wasteland...especially looking forward.

i feel abandoned by nintendo as a gamer. i play games for the story and immersion...not to collect things (unless we're talking katamari), garden, or mime playing the trumpet. what is this, i don't want to learn buttons talk? i grew up with old school PC adventure games...where learning a ridiculous set of controls really made you take control over the character. it upsets me to see things so dumbed down that the only skill required is leaning/balancing/miming. the bottom line is, they need to keep a balance...and after e3 it's clear they've gone so far in the casual direction that it's totally disheartening.

In answer to Wootini's title question: Absolutely nothing.

I honestly think there is nothing "wrong" with the Wii, it's library, audience or features. Now before I get flamed by Neo, let me explain.

I think that the Wii delivers exactly what its audience wants where the others (Sony/MS) have largely missed: Price point, features, and experience. These are among the biggest motivating factors at purchase time.

Price point is pretty obvious. Right now in the US, people aren't exactly up for spending $349 or more for just the box. MS is the only one getting competitive with the Arcade model, finally closing in on the Wii's price tag, but I'm not sure just how much of an effect the "gimped" version of the console will have. Moving onto games themselves, the Wii comes with one of the best games this generation while the other guys may or may not have a pack in at all. With games on Wii launching at prices between $30 to $50 and Sony/MS games launching almost universally at $60, this is something else that would deter the average player. Controller prices is the only place that Nintendo ends up being more expensive than the competition, but it seems like players are willing to over look that.

The differences in features between consoles gets a little more cloudy though. One man's garbage is another's treasure. Not everyone is going to get excited over HD, drives, normal mapping, or whatever number of polygons a machine can push. On the some front, not everyone is going to get excited about motion controls, casual games, and "point and click" functionality. This is clearly a matter of personal preferences. I think that the Wii's features are simply more interesting due to fact that we've never seen consoles use motion controls like that before. I'm sure someone could be more interested in the storage capacity of a blu ray disc, but I think it's safe to say that those people would be the exception rather than the norm.

As important as those two factors are, the most important one is the end user experience. WiiFit constantly telling me I'm overweight withstanding, the best experiences on Wii are always inviting and encouraging to new players. And this is where I see the largest disconnect from Nintendo's new audience and "hardcore gamers." Hardcore gaming has largely become a specialized and intimidating experience for those who don't have years of experience to back them up. Honestly, can you imagine someone's first console being a PS3 or 360? From control scheme complexity to visual design to gameplay goals, the HD consoles only target a narrow range of players. Things that look, feel, and control like Halo, Resistance, Motorstorm, Gears, and Heavenly Sword will only be what a narrow audience is looking for. On the other hand, WiiSports, Mario Anything, and Rabbits are literally designed for the widest audiences possible.

I think what we are seeing this generation is the creation of a new set of gamers. Gamers with different motivations for playing and different needs (largely from a design perspective). This is just opinion, but I think that hardcore gamers at this point are so far disconnected from how most mainstream audiences view their hobby that they are unable to see the hurdles that new players would have to jump through in order to get started.

IMO, a lot of hardcore gamers are upset (see comments above) that this new audience is seemingly coming out of nowhere and "stealing" the source of some of gaming greatest titles. To the commenters above, where were you last generation when Nintendo put out some of the best "hardcore" games ever seen? Did you pick up stuff like Eternal Darkness, F-Zero, Baten Kaitos, Viewitful Joe, Pikmin, or Metroid Prime? Did you give developers a chance to bring more experimental "core" experiences to the platform? Killer7, Paper Mario, Geist, Chibi Robo and others where there. Simply put, Nintendo gave this audience exactly what they wanted and didn't make a whole lot of money from it. They had their chance, now Nintendo moved on a much more profitable market. I think that this generation is a rude awakening (or denial by the looks of some) for most hardcore gamers. They are realizing that they are no longer the most important audience to cater to... and to people that take this stuff too seriously, it hurts just a little.

We should be happy that for the first time in the history of games, the market is able to (sorta) support three consoles at once and that we're seeing the greatest variety and quality of gaming experiences ever.

I fail to see how the PS3 is for the "hardcore" and the 360 is for the "standard" gamer. unless by "hardcore" you mean "I wanted a Blu-Ray player, and something that would play multi-platform titles in one box."

I've always been of the opinion that it is the exclusives that define a console; which is murky these days with the costs of development so high that things need to go multi-platform. Uncharted did nothing for me, and while I would like MGS, it's not worth the cost of admission plus Sony's ever changing SKUs.

rather than argue semantics over the PS3 vs 360, what is wrong with the Wii? it's the popular kid everyone wants to be friends with. everyone always cites "ZOMG therez so much shovelwarez!!!!1" so wait, there was never shovelware before the Wii? go find a mom and pop game store that carries PS1 games. oops, TONS of garbage titles! this has been something that has occurred for as long as there have been video games. make a cheap game to turn a quick buck. it happened initially on the PSP, but it didn't go anywhere so it doubled on the DS. you cannot go into a store without being confronted by a dozen animal titles pluralized by a Z. didn't Ubisoft admit that they pretty much shoved that Prince of Persia release out the door ASAP just to try and cash in?

the problem's not the Wii's hardware. if it was, it would be possible to see them on a store shelf for longer than ten minutes. the problem's not Nintendo, they still make games that appeal to both the harder core demographic, and to the casual player. (grandma's not picking up Metroid or Mario for herself here, folks.) the "problem" is that the Wii is being treated like this generation's savior by the general populace, while the "hardcore" crowd snubs it because it doesn't push enough polygons, or boast so much bloom you cannot see what is going on on the screen.

I'm really beyond caring about all the mudslinging of this generation, because the ever present label of "fanboy" is tossed around more than a basketball during the Final Four. I'm here to play the games that I find fun. I have my handful of gems for the Wii, and I have my 360 (when it's not with MS getting repaired). I still own more games for my GC than either my Wii, 360, or even original Xbox. I own more PS2 games than any of those, and more PS1 games than PS2. my collection is nearing 750 titles, and I can say that this generation barely makes up 20 of those. I like to consider myself a hardcore gamer, as it's pretty much what I eat, drink, and sleep; but I'm really getting tired of the constant virtual-cock-stroking that the each new console war becomes.

My main beef with the Wii is the ton of crap they keep throwing on the VC lately. I know, I know. This has all been said before. There are even websites dedicated to wondering when games like Earthbound & SMRPG are ever going to rear their head on the VC. But seriously now, I play a lot of "old-school" games and mainly bought a Wii for the VC in the first place so I don't have to fire up my collection of "dinosaur" consoles downstairs. I just feel like in the past few months, they have practically abandoned it. Every Monday, it has been the same scenario. "Oh look, another WiiWare title." "Oh look, another overpriced Neo-Geo game that I already own on the SNK Collection Vol.1." Are they playing us for suckers or what? Do people really buy those games? I am sure they have to get some of the crappier titles out of the way but come on Nintendo! Throw us something good every once in a while!

Sorry, but that's my only rant about the Wii...and it's pretty minor at that...

The main problem with the Wii is that it basically makes developers lazy. They know that they don't have to put any effort into the games whatsoever, and yet they'll sell. So we get a library that is almost 95% crappy minigame collections or shoddy Playstation 2 ports with crappy waggle-err, I mean "motion controls" tacked on.
Even Nintendo drops the ball. Look at Mario Kart Wii...seriously, look at it and tell me that doesn't look like a Playstation 2 game from 2001.
But it's all about "the casual market" for them. Well, yes, because right now it's popular and profitable. However, gaming has become a "fad" among the general populace, and when the casual games bubble bursts (and trust me, it will), Nintendo is going to be left in the cold.
I was an ardent Nintendo supporter until this generation. I still have a rather large Gamecube collection that I play on my Wii (thanks to having component cables for it, otherwise I'd still have my Gamecube hooked up). But watching E3, it became clear that Nintendo simply doesn't care about core gamers anymore. Sure, there are a few great games on the Wii (Smash Bros, Mario Galaxy, the not-as-good-as-the-Gamecube-version-but-still-good Twilight Princess), but they're buried under an avalanche of Carnival Games crap. If I didn't have some VC games I really, really love, and have a few Wii games I can play properly (that is, the ones that allow Classic/Gamecube controller input), I'd sell the Wii in a heartbeat right now.
So, congratulations Nintendo, you've managed to win over the much sought-after retirement home demographic. Good for you. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go play some real games on my 360, PS3 and laptop.

David, my point about learning all the buttons was that a game doesn't need some insanely complicated control scheme to be great or immersive. Sometimes the overly complicated and overly complex control schemes of games just make them a pain to play and in some cases I think kill the fun of the game. And yes I played through and loved some of those old school PC games like Ultima Underworld, which used an insane amount of keys on the keyboard. At the same time you had the very easy to use point-n-click mouse controls of the Lucas Arts adventure games, but the ease of that control scheme didn't make the game any less fun or challenging.

When complex control schemes work they work, when they don't they don't and it can ruin the game. I want to play a game and have fun, not have the control manual in front of me at all times having to look down to rember what does what. Sometimes I feel like designers of some games use every button on a controller and give them each 10 different functions in 10 different scenarios just because they can; as if this somehow makes the game better. This also goes for some Nintendo games too, as I've played Wii games where the designers tried to give every directional move on the Wiimote a different function in the game; and in the end it becomes a pain.

That said, I think every system has a good deal of crap-ware to wade through. I think right now Nintendo is seeing the most because it's the system everyone is still hot to get. Therefore it's what game designers are pumping out. It wasn't all that long ago that the PS2 was the hot system to have, and it too had a lot of junk games.

And for the person who made the post about crapware on the virtual console, bravo! I'm already over "Wiiware." I liked the VC because it was offering up some of the classics I grew up with or missed out on because I didn't have a SNES or TG16.

Oh my god! Did I really hear fanboy being mentioned??

Grow up for pete's sake. And stop talking about your opinions as being fact. IT IS AN OPINION.

So what if controls are complicated? So what if controls are simple? So what if a game is intended for the masses? So what if a game is intended for the few? So what? But stop freaking slating each other for what we like/don't like. It's the most pathetic show I've seen in a long time and I freaking expected better. It's crap like this that shys me away from forums.

"LISTEN TO ME!!! MY OPINION AND MY OPINION COUNTS ONLY!!!! AND OF YOU DON'T LIKE THAT THEN I WILL BERATE YOU"

By all means be passionate about gaming, but cut the elitist crap.

And lastly, Neo...Kiss my "fanboy" ass.

Woah.

I love when someone is telling you to calm down while they're filling their diaper.

Are comments posted in irony on this site?

I posted about inconsistency among poster regarding Nintendo and it's faults, and the only response is "OMG UR WRONG LOLCANOES"

Yeah, well done, you've proven your e-penii are enormous.etc.

The moral of the story is that Neo [That's me, see how I referred to myself in the first person, feel the arrogance] doesn't give a toss about console wars, I only hate inconsistency and petulance, as many here are showing.

I own a 360, the DVD drive is annoyingly loud, I only play Brian Lara Cricket and Mass Effect and it doesn't work well with my TV.

The PS3 is clunky, boring and the games bar MGS4 aren't particularly interesting or great.

The Wii is incredibly dull, and the sheer amount of terrible badly made games should be a concern, as it will kill the demographic they're aiming for eventually.

Yeah, I take no sides other than the side that hates rampant idiocy.

Though, I'd be lying if I didn't expect flack for siding with that team.

"And Neo, again your arrogance can be felt way over here across the pond in old blighty."

This. Seriously.

Also, not the first time.