PAX East 2010: Kotaku and Croal
My primary interests at PAX East were in the panels it offered. Among those I attended, the one that engaged the audience the most was the Kotaku and Croal: In Search of the Best Games Ever panel, which offered gamers the chance to see how best to decide on the top 10 list of best games of all time. Given the topic, it is not hard to anticipate how gamers were vocal on decisions made.
The panel featured Stephen Totilo, of Kotaku, and N'Gai Croal, of the consultancy company Hit Detection, who were the moderators and creators of the game, entitled Canon Fodder--a title which had me giggling. Also on the panel, as commentators and players, were Frank Lantz of Drop7, Chris Avellone of Obsidian, and Justin Richmond of Naughty Dog.
Canon Fodder was created to determine the best videogames, with an eye toward how perception of games evolve over time. It is a turn-based multiplayer game, so you can easily play it yourself with a room full of game nerds. Swear words may ensue. Groans may utter forth. Tears? They may or may not roll.
Totilo and Croal started off with a base list, which they grabbed from GameRankings:
1. Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
2. Super Mario Galaxy
3. Grand Theft Auto IV
4. Super Mario World
5. Metroid Prime
6. SoulCalibur
7. The Orange Box
8. Uncharted 2: Among Thieves
9. Super Metroid
10. Metal Gear Solid (GBA version)
During a player's turn, she must choose on of these actions:
1. Do nothing.
2. Swap rankings.
3. Remove and replace.
Hit below the fold to see who played and what decisions were made:
Player 1: Patrice Désilets, the creative director of Assassin's Creed went for option 3. He removed Super Mario Galaxy and replaced it with Super Mario 64. While there were gasps among the audience that Galaxy was removed, a murmur of approval passed through the audience as 64 made its presence known.
Player 2: Peter Molyneaux, of Lionhead Studios, decided to replace an FPS, Metroid Prime, with Half-Life, stating that it is the best among its genre for wedding gameplay and narrative--it set the example for what games should achieve.
Player 3: Kellee Santiago, president of That Game Company, made a move many people obsessed with fairness and rules would love. She removed The Orange Box, replacing it with Portal while stating that it was more than strong enough to stand on its own.
Player 4: Jenova Chen, also of That Game Company, removed SoulCalibur, and replaced it with World of Warcraft. A grumble slowly rumbled out from the audience--more in the name of adding WoW than removing the one fighter on the list.
Player 5: Jade Raymond, who has produced both Assassin's Creed titles, made a move for which the audience seemed to have been clamoring. She removed the GBA version of Metal Gear Solid and put in its place Tetris.
Player 6: Jeremiah Slaczka, a creative director and cofounder of 5TH Cell, decided, likely in response to Raymond's move, to remove Grand Theft Auto IV and replace it with Metal Gear Solid--though not the GBA version.
Player 7: Pete Wanat, at Universal Games and known for creating not-horrible licensed games, noted that there was no representation of sports title, and subsequently removed Super Mario World and replaced it with Madden NFL 2004. The audience, not pleased, erupted into shouts and yells. Whether or not they were sports fans, they were not fans of that particular title, it seems.
Player 8: Media Molecule's Alex Evans and David Smith noted that they were Europeans. Presented with a list that included a football game, they opted to remove Madden NFL 2004 and put in its stead Ico. One has to wonder if the same swap would have occurred had a FIFA title been on the list.
Player 9: Curt Schilling, of 38 Studios, decided to pay homage to a childhood classic of his own--a love of his from early on that has informed most of his gaming life, according to him. He removed Ico and replaced it with Wizardry.
At this point, the players became the panelists.
Player 10: Justin Richmond could not abide by Wizardry being representative of the RPGs on the list, and opted instead for Chrono Trigger.
Player 11: Frank Lantz decided Uncharted 2 was still too new, had not stood the test of time, and opted instead for Starcraft, a title he feels left an impact on gaming as a whole--not just the industry, but with gamers.
Player 12: This was the first time we saw someone deciding not to use option 3, and Chris Avellone decided instead to swap the rankings of Half-Life and Portal.
Player 13: At this point the panel brought up Richard Lemarchand, who had been sitting in the first row, to participate. He also opted to swap, switching WoW and Half-Life.
The final top ten list before they concluded the panel (but not the game)?
1. Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
2. Super Mario 64
3. Metal Gear Solid
4. Chrono Trigger
5. Portal
6. Half-Life
7. World of Warcraft
8. Starcraft
9. Super Metroid
10. Tetris
As I discussed with Croal after the panel, there seemed to be a question of what canon meant. What did the best game mean? He and I seemed in agreement that canon is exemplary of its form, not necessarily the innovator itself. In literature and theater, Shakespeare is almost indisputably ranked in the canon, yet nothing he did was really all that original. This would explain why Portal would rank above Half-Life for some people.
Another trend we noticed is depending on the starting set, people will likely opt for removal and replacement early on in the game, and as the game goes forward, and some people start having second turns, the game would likely become one that focuses more on swapping.
What about you? What further moves would you make at this point?
VorpalBunny
Posted to Hot Stuff on 30 March 2010
· Comments (8)
Other stuff like this: game, kotaku, n'gai croal, panel, pax east, stephen totilo, top ten
I would probably put tetris higher and replace mario 64 with a more older version (super mario world?). Chrono trigger is a fun game and all but there has been better ones in term of RPG... and i wouldn't put it that high on the list either.
I don't feel ocarina of time should be at the top, it should be on the top 10 but not the top... But then, what should be number 1?
I would have replaced OoT with A Link to the Past, because (1) LTTP established the template that every Zelda game has followed since, and (2)it's my favorite game of all time anyway.
A minor thing: There is not GBA port of Metal Gear Solid. The game originally on the list is a GameBoy Color game titled Metal Gear Solid, but it's not a port of the PS1 game. It has the same name, but it takes place in a separate continuity from the main series and has its own unique story.
I think it's interesting that no one touched Ocarina of Time/the No.1 spot (though I too would have left it alone). I would swap out WoW for Shadow of the Colossus, Goldeneye or possibly Valkyria Chronicles (but that one's probably too new as well).
Thank you, Oliemoon. I suppose one day I shall actually have to tackle the series of MGS and figure out what is going on there...
If I can do it for the comic series The Invisibles, I should enjoy it for MGS.
Ocarina of Time should be number 1, but only if it's the "Most overrated games of all time" list. That and FFVII are the most blown-out-of-proportion-to-how-good-they-really-are games ever.
And while I think it definitely should be on the list, why was Orange Box counted as 1 game?
Super Mario Bros. 3 should be there instead of Mario 64.
And WoW? Please...that alone invalidates the entire list.
It's funny how some people tend to venerate certain games just because of how old they are and the changes they brought to the industry.
OoT set a standard, to be certain. But does that mean it's the best Zelda game, let alone game of all time. While I agree it's a great game I think, and I don't know how many people will support me here, the list is tending more towards, not greatness exactly, but innovation.
Ocarina of Time changed Zelda games forever, but I feel that Twilight Princess was the best we've seen so far.
Age should have nothing to do with what makes a game great.
It's like the way people talk about "Citizen Kane" It's supposedly the "greatest movie of all time" and here's what I think about that: It's not.
I'll admit it changed cinema forever. It brought in a lot of new ideas, it changed how the images on screen could be interpreted and how dialogue and setting could also set the feel for a scene. But other movies have come along that have done it better.
It's like saying the Model-T is the best car ever because it was the first to have a steering wheel and an engine and whatnot. That doesn't make it the best, it only makes it the first. And predecessors come along and improve on things and make them better.
My feeling in a nut shell (sorry for the long post) but just because a game is innovative doesn't mean it's the best. I feel this list is nothing more than most innovative games, not greatest.
"Canon Fodder was created to determine the best videogames, with an eye toward how perception of games evolve over time"
Considering that this was a room full of industry people and the slant of the game... innovation was key to this list. While I agree that OoT is overrated, it's place on this list is solid and justified by virtue of setting the bar not just for the series or genre, but games in general.
As far as changes go... personally, I'd swap Half-Life with Half-Life 2, because the second game brought a lot more to the table, and the physics engine in it has changed gaming. And while Super Metroid definitely is a fantastic open world game, I'd swap it out for Shadow of the Colossus for sheer scale and a more engrossing story.
Cool article, I'll have to try this myself sometime
Swap WoW for UO, swap Starcraft for Dune; as usual, other devs do all the heavy lifting and Blizzard somehow gets the credit.